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N2B8R	Let the Sun Shine	Lead	[-]
TIGER OVERLORD Posts: 4253 (07/01/09 15:31:15) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Tags : None A proposal announced by Interior Secretary Ken Salazar Monday could increase by 70-fold the existing installed capacity of solar electricity-generating plants in the United States. The plants would be located on federal land and eventually provide a capacity of 100,000 megawatts, enough to provide the electricity needs of 15 million to 25 million residences. Today, slightly more than a gigawatt (1000 megawatts) of photovoltaic-generated electricity and 600 megawatts of concentrated solar power operations are tied to the nation's electrical grid. Off-grid PV installations are calculated at 50 megawatts. Companies have previously announced they will build nearly 6000 megawatts of CSP plants in California, Arizona and New Mexico. There are currently about 29,000 megawatts of installed wind power capacity in the United States. Ten years ago there were 2500 megawatts. Balancing the need for renewable energy with other environmental concerns, such as land conservation and wildlife preservation, has long been a concern of major green advocacy groups. Some land that is best suited for solar output is also some of the nation's most fragile desert habitat. Meteor Blades Man is a Religious Animal. He is the only Religious Animal. He is the only animal that has the True Religion.....several of them. He is the only animal that loves his neighbor as himself and cuts his throat if his theology isn't straight. Samuel Langhorne Clemens
gshabo		#1	[-]
TIGER OVERLORD Posts: 2629 (07/02/09 02:31:22) Sophomore Tiger Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	That sounds like a horrible idea! Next thing you know, they'll start building cars that run off of electricity.
wcvet		#2	[-]
TIGER OVERLORD Posts: 8205 (07/02/09 05:13:28) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	It is not a bad idea. SOlar, with today's technology, is a good supplement to either coal, nuclear, or hydro electric energy. questions that are yet to be answered is how to meet demands at night????, ( YOu know when electricity usage is highest), how to transport electricity economically to where it is needed ( not many homes in a federal desert), and how to account for increases and decreases in demand ( storage of electricity). Nothing wrong with investigating this type of energy production but to think it is the future of electricity in our country is foolish and near sighted and just what I would expect from a idealistic, dream based, impractical, and out of touch administration.
ATLtigerfan		#3	[-]
TIGER OVERLORD Posts: 3157 (07/02/09 06:28:58) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Balancing the need for renewable energy with other environmental concerns, such as land conservation and wildlife preservation, has long been a concern of major green advocacy groups. Some land that is best suited for solar output is also some of the nation's most fragile desert habitat. ------------------------------ Yes, it's a wonderful sounding make you feel good idea, but pay attention to the last line. See, the land that is best suited for solar output is in the desert in the middle of nowhere, which brings up a host of issues. First off, enviro groups don't want the deserts covered up with solar panels, second, the transmission lines needed to transport this power from the desert to where its' needed, would have to cut through more desert, state and national parks. Again, even more opposition and lawsuits waiting to happen. Third, solar panels are high maintenance. They collect dirt like crazy and require frequent cleaning. So in the middle of the desert these panels will require frequent washing in order to be effective, which will require vast amounts of...............???? Yep, water. Not sure where that is going to come from. Now before you poo poo me as a fossil fuel hardliner, let me say I'm all for alternative forms of energy. But practicality, cost-effectiveness, and common sense take precedence. Unless there are major technology breakthroughs when it comes to solar and wind, they will be nothing more than limited supplemental means of power production and just feel good stories. The future for this country is sitting right in front of us with nuclear. There is a 1 hour special that airs on MSCNBC(of all networks go figure) from time to time about nuclear power. Worth watching. Last Edited By: ATLtigerfan 07/02/09 06:31:21. Edited 1 times.
CharlesUFarley		#4	[-]
5th Year Senior Tiger Posts: 511 (07/04/09 10:09:57) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	A little applied mathematics: Generating capacity of Barry Steam Plant, coal fired plant north of Mobile, AL: 2.6 million KW Peak insolation (amount of solar energy available at peak conditions) in the US: 1000 watts/square meter or 1 KW/ Square meter Max. Efficiency of a photovoltaic cell: 11%. Most are less. We'll use 10% to make the math easier. Max. efficiency of a photovoltacic concentrator cell: 20%* Size of solar power plant required to match peak output of Barry: =(2,600,000 KW/ 1 KW/m^2)/ .1= 26,000,000 square meters = 26 Square Kilometers = 9.36 Square Miles. Then, it will only put out approximately 1/6th of the peak output of Barry because peak sunlight is only available 4 hours a day. * solar concentrator cells might help, but they'd still need a TREMENDOUS amount of collector area, and still only work 4 hours a day. Solar power is just not practical to replace large generating plants, and won't be for the forseeable future. Solar power is good for distributed generation. It would be fine for a roof top residential application that developed about 4 KW during peak Air Conditioning time during the Summer, but in the Winter, that additional power would be largely wasted because there isn't enough demand on the grid to absorb it. Solar power is good, promising, and worth development, but it is a pipe dream to think major generating plants will be solar. They will be nuclear, coal, and natural gas for all of our lifetimes and possibly beyond. That being said, I hope to build an off grid capable partially solar powered house soon. I am not a critic because I don't believe in it and support it, I am a critc because I am familiar with the facts. Life, Liberty, and Property
wcvet		#5	[-]
TIGER OVERLORD Posts: 8205 (07/06/09 11:38:48) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	NOt to mention that Barry can throw more coal on the fire when more electricity is needed and keep coal from the fire when less electricity is needed but the powers that be have determined that BArry ( steam plant variety not presidential) needs to be punished.
CharlesUFarley		#6	[-]
5th Year Senior Tiger Posts: 511 (07/06/09 15:21:10) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	*but the powers that be have determined that BArry ( steam plant variety not presidential) needs to be punished.* It really is just a tax, don't think of it as anything else. Alabama Power is gaurunteed a profit by the public service commission. We have already seen natural gas prices go up 300% or so over the last decade, this was entirely due to EPA regs. Since solar can't meet the demand, nukes take a long time and a lot of capital, the short to intermediate term solution will be more Natural Gas plants, which will raise the price of gas further, which will once again create an equilibrium condition where coal is cost effective. Since the net effect of the governments action is to raise the operating costs of the utilities, but they are still gaurunteed a profit, they will simply make the same percentage on a larger cost basis, translation: more profit. Big Coal rolls right along, thank you. Coal prices will probably fall, and the Chinese and South Americans will be more than happy to buy the cheaper US coal, and will go on sending that CO2, H2S, NOx, and all sorts of other pollutants, many of them real, into the atmosphere, but they will do it far away from the heavy hand of the EPA. To top it all off, this kind of thinking is destined to weaken the US economy. A weaker US economy has less international clout. It is highly doubtful that all the third world countries are going to give a rats arse about global warming, and the weakened US won't have enough politcal and economic clout to stop them from burning our coal. Life, Liberty, and Property
CharlesUFarley		#7	[-]
5th Year Senior Tiger Posts: 511 (07/06/09 15:38:00) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	But look, I'm not here just to poke holes in everyone's plan. The simple solution is to INCREASE electrictiy production from coal, but to COGENERATE, i.e., use the waste heat off of the coal buring plants (and the nuke plants, for that matter) to produce carbon neutral or carbon negative fuels. I do not know what temperature Barry condenses at, but I am sure it is adequate to supply heat to an ethanol distillery, and at least offset some of the carbon content of the ethanol production, plus lower the cost of producing the ethanol. You could do this with nukes on a much grander scale. There are also some very promising high temperature fuel cell designs that could produce efficiencies as high as 60%, that operate at temperatures so high that they can reform coal in the hydrogen based fuels internally, and even burn carbom monoxide as a fuel. To top it off, they would still produce waste heat at very usable termperatures. GE is developing one of these technologies: the solid-oxide fuel cell. I bet the Chinese are the first to use it. Essentially, it could double the amount of electricity a plant like Barry could produce from a given amount of coal, plus produce less emissions. Life, Liberty, and Property
wcvet		#8	[-]
TIGER OVERLORD Posts: 8205 (07/07/09 04:59:22) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	that is real science at work and not this hocus pocus stuff the left likes so much. WE need to use coal and figure out a way to do it safely for workers and the environment. We have the world's largest supply of it and if we can figure out an efficient and safe way to do it we could become the Middle east of coal. That would be a good thing but our short sighted administration would rather throw away the resource we have the most of.
ATLtigerfan		#9	[-]
TIGER OVERLORD Posts: 3157 (07/08/09 05:22:27) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	wcvet wrote: that is real science at work and not this hocus pocus stuff the left likes so much. WE need to use coal and figure out a way to do it safely for workers and the environment. We have the world's largest supply of it and if we can figure out an efficient and safe way to do it we could become the Middle east of coal. That would be a good thing but our short sighted administration would rather throw away the resource we have the most of. Actually the chosen one said during the campaign he intended to kill the coal industry. Just more fairy tale aspirations for an administration that has zero grip on reality. Reality trumps rhetoric every time.... Last Edited By: ATLtigerfan 07/09/09 07:20:25. Edited 1 times.

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