1st eight belles is euthanized and then this ..

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BizEagle

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TIGER OVERLORD

Posts: 5388

(05/07/08 11:12:46)

How did you know it wasn't about you, Grad. You are so intuitive, it's scarey.

theplainstruth

Back in the '60's

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TIGER OVERLORD

Posts: 2005

(05/07/08 11:36:34)

5th Year Senior Tiger

My father tried to show me the old way of doing things. He took me to my granddad's, intent on plowing a field, with a horse and plow. The horse didn't cooperate at first, so Dad would pull him a little, and push a little. After plowing about 2 rows, the horse quit. Dad goes around to "encourage the horse, and the horse bites him. Dad then calmly punched the horse between the eyes, knocking it out cold. When the horse came around, I fed and watered it, and wouldn't you know the damn thing finished the plowing. Needless to say, we never did that again. I did learn 2 important lessons, never make an animal mad, unless my Dad was around, and most importantly, never make my Dad mad. I guess the funny thing about this is, the change in what people consider ethical treatment, has changed considerably from the depression era people, to today's overindulgent society.

BizEagle

Well said . . .

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TIGER OVERLORD

Posts: 5388

(05/07/08 13:30:21)

but initially I thought you were making an analogy between that old plow horse and Grad or N2

Last Edited By: BizEagle 05/07/08 13:40:50. Edited 1 times.

theplainstruth

As far as Grad or N2

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TIGER OVERLORD

Posts: 2005

(05/07/08 14:08:36)

5th Year Senior Tiger

If the horseshoe fits I guess.

N2B8R

Only ignorant telephone poles

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TIGER OVERLORD

Posts: 3064

(05/07/08 15:17:13)

You have free will and a personal right to trust whoever you wish Biz. I would never try to deny you that. You have me at a disadvantage since I haven't met the man. I definitely wasn't intending to insult our Vet.

But just for the reputation....

Let me rephrase for those who wouldn't know the truth if it came up and bit them on the arse.

I choose not trust a veterinarian with a poor track record on animal rights who's expertise and objectivity I have internet experience with. Imagine, listening to an animal doctor who advocates live animal testing and constantly complains about animal right groups, in regard to the best interests of horses. Pretty weird, huh?

Somebody is at the bottom to every medical class. Might be your vet or MD. Try not to think about it.

These times are so uncertain, there's a yearning undefined...and people filled with rage.
We all need a little tenderness. How can love survive in such a graceless age....
Don Henley

wcvet

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TIGER OVERLORD

Posts: 6334

(05/07/08 17:12:35)

N2b8er I feel compelled to respond to this. I am probably the only person on this board who has gotten out of bed to work on an animal, I have devoted my life to animal care, I have a dog and a cat who receive the best of everything and live in the house and I spent part of my off day today working to improve my facility so I can better take care of the animals in my care. I abhor animal cruelty and have supplied documentation and expertise in several court cases for animals to be removed from abusive circumstances so there is no way I could be described as having a poor track record on animal rights. I dont imagine you are big fans of people who bomb abortion clinics and PETA and the like are those type of people. PETA's stance on this horse racing issue is nothing short of asinine. I see way more neglected and mistreated horses as the products of the recreational horse industry than the racing industry and honestly I no longer do much large animal work but there has been a time when I made at least half my living from it. Race horses are valuable animals and in most instances are treated as such. LIve animal testing and live animal surgical training for veterinary students is in the best interest of animals. Much better for this expertise to be attained on an animal whose pain can be controlled and will soon be euthanized than on a clients animal which to me would be grounds for malpractice. Animals are not humans and I dont think they have the same rights we do but I dont condone the mistreatment of them in anyway. I was also FAR from the bottom of my class and have a bunch of plaques and citations on my office wall that are worth about what your opinion is.

Also for clarification purposes from teh MErck Vet manual which is a simplistic and broad overview

Exercise-induced pulmonary hemorrhage (EIPH) occurs in the majority of racehorses and is observed in many other equine sports (eg, polo, barrel racing, 3-day events) that require strenuous exercise for short periods of time. Epistaxis is observed in a small proportion (~5%) of horses with EIPH. Blood in the tracheobronchial tree is identified in 44-75% of racehorses via endoscopic examination, and hemorrhage is detected by cytologic examination of bronchoalveolar lavage in 93% of racehorses.

Etiology:

Proposed pathophysiologic mechanisms for pulmonary hemorrhage include high pulmonary vascular pressures during maximal exercise, neovascularization secondary to pulmonary inflammation, coagulation dysfunction, and intrathoracic shear forces generated during exercise. Some research suggests EIPH results from failure of the pulmonary system to accommodate a massive increase in cardiac output to meet the demands of high intensity exercise.

Diagnosis:

Exercise-induced pulmonary hemorrhage

Endoscopic observation of blood in the airways 30-90 min after exercise provides definitive evidence of EIPH. Other sources of hemorrhage in the upper airway, particularly guttural pouch mycosis ( Guttural Pouch Mycosis) and ethmoid hematoma ( Ethmoid Hematoma), must be excluded during endoscopic examination. If EIPH is suspected and the horse cannot be examined after exercise, cytologic examination of bronchoalveolar lavage fluid for semiquantitative assessment of hemosiderophages is diagnostic. Stains that highlight iron-containing pigments (Prussian blue) facilitate recognition of these cells. Thoracic radiography demonstrates alveolar or mixed alveolar-interstitial opacities in the caudodorsal lung fields; however, radiographic examination of the thorax has little impact on the diagnosis or management of EIPH.

Treatment and Control:

Furosemide does not appear to prevent pulmonary hemorrhage, but it does reduce the severity by 70% and improve race performance. Horses with and without EIPH demonstrate equal improvements in race performance after administration, indicating that furosemide may enhance performance via mechanisms unrelated to EIPH. Application of nasal dilator bands reduces RBC counts in bronchoalveolar fluid from affected horses running on a treadmill by 33%. Alternative treatments, including procoagulant agents (eg, vitamin K, conjugated estrogens, aminocaproic acid), antihypertensive drugs, rheologic agents (pentoxyphylline), bronchodilators, prolonged rest, dietary supplements (hepseridin-citrus bioflavinoids), and anti-inflammatory drugs, have not demonstrated therapeutic benefit.

Many of these alternative treatments would not benefit a case of pulmonary edema so comparing the two is a stretch although I will give you increased capillary permability as a possible mechanism. Dexamethasone is the treatment of choice for aht but you will notice that is not one we use in EPH. I have personally treated horse with this with lasix ( furosemide) and could not tell a whole lot of difference in their performance but could in their post performance return to normalcy. THis is a drug that is given for the animals benefit and to make them more comfortable and enjoy doing something they love to do ( barrel racing, trail rides, etc) and is hardly a case of animal exploitation. If you watched the derby surely you realize that most of these animals love to race and that is what they want to do just as these horses I used to work on loved barrel racing and other events they performed in and something that allows them to do this more comfortably is definitely in the animals best interest.

Last Edited By: wcvet 05/07/08 17:26:32. Edited 1 times.

theplainstruth

N2

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TIGER OVERLORD

Posts: 2005

(05/07/08 17:18:12)

5th Year Senior Tiger

Auburn is a very ethical school, especially when it comes to the treatment of animals. They have been investtigated numerous times, and always pass with flying colors. I believe live animal testing is essential, and if it saves 1 human life, then it is worth it. If you don't agree, then maybe you aren't as compassionate as a liberal should be.Animal rights groups want to treat animals with greater compassion than humans. They need to get a freakin' life. To imply that Vet, or any vet for that matter, would lack compassion for animals, is absurd. They just have greater compassion for humans. Animals are here for our benefit, not the other way around. They should be treated humanely, but if we want to eat them, use them for labor(though that is not needed much), or for amusement(racing etc.) then that is fine. To place their importance ahead of mans, is ridiculous. I question the sanity of anyone who would do so.

BizEagle

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TIGER OVERLORD

Posts: 5388

(05/07/08 18:05:34)

Well then N2, you trust the internet and I'll trust the warm body with the impressive resume and go-zillion loyal customers. If you read it on the PETA web site it must be true, right?

N2B8R

Vet, I apologize for the confusion.

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TIGER OVERLORD

Posts: 3064

(05/07/08 18:36:18)

I wasn't trying to insinuate you were at the bottom of your class. Just trying to make a point. Biz butted in on our friendly discussion and I used you to make an argument. I shouldn't have.
I have the utmost respect for vets. One of my best friends is an AU grad and owns/operates an animal surgery clinic in Fla. I realize the sacrifices you make for your profession.
I also am enough of a realist to understand how people who work long term in the medical field become apathetic. One almost has to to do my job. If I get emotionally involved I cannot function as efficiently as I am capable. I worked the Pediatric Intensive care Unit at The Children's Hospital for 10 years. I disconnected many ventilators and watched as mom rocked her sweet baby back and forth, singing softly as the ECG went flatline. Nobody with a heart watches that without getting emotional. But if you don't disconnect......you will have a breakdown. There is too much innocent pain and suffering to bear. Bald-headed 5 year old chemo patients, smiling and happy like every thing's gonna be OK tomorrow. Most employees don't last long. Especially young parents.
But now, working with adults, almost every problem I see is self inflicted. Obesity and COPD make up 75% of our patients. My patients are the dregs of society. You would not believe some of the sh!t we see in lower Alabama. See, I've lost that lovin' feelin'. I really need to get back to a "real" hospital.

Point being...
I have at least as much, if not more, sympathy for innocent animals as I do for humans who have made a choice and suffer the consequences. You think people have some right animals don't have.
I am all for embryonic stem cell research, you are pro-live animal testing....and so on...
No problem here.

BTW, I've been to a cat lab to practice neonatal intubation. They closely simulate an infants airway. It was really pitiful though. The animals started drooling as soon as they heard the door open. A little ketamine, a little atropine and they're limp as a noodle. 4 or 5 students may intubate and extubate the same animal. I actually adopted one and he was my buddy for 12 years. He never made a sound. Needless to say, I did not participate again.

I have to believe your working with animals and my working with humans has an influence on our opinions.

And Biz, I'll trust myself, if that's OK with you there bud...

These times are so uncertain, there's a yearning undefined...and people filled with rage.
We all need a little tenderness. How can love survive in such a graceless age....
Don Henley

Last Edited By: N2B8R 05/07/08 18:41:41. Edited 1 times.

theplainstruth

N2

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TIGER OVERLORD

Posts: 2005

(05/07/08 19:39:21)

5th Year Senior Tiger

What years were you in the pediatric ICU? We have been there many times with my youngest, beginning just after her birth in'98. That is IMHO a wonderful hospital, and the personnel were the best I've been around. I thank God for that facility, and for my daughter's life, which has come very close to ending many times.

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1st eight belles is euthanized and then this ..

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