I think the point Biz is making and one we all need to be aware of is that slowly the seperation of Church and state is being used to erode the rights of
Churches and Christians alike. Unfortunately this country was founded as a "Christian" nation not in a legal sense but in a cultural one. time has
begun to erode many of the traditions and customs and even freedoms ( prayer in schools) that we enjoyed as a Christian nation as other religions have emerged.
the idea was a tolerance for all religions not an abandonment of all things religious. the ten commandments, while viewed by some in a religious context, are
the basis for the Judeo Christian ethics that makeup our rule of law. To deny their example is to deny our own beginnings. I enjoy a prayer before the ball
games and the national anthem and while we still do these things in small towns in the deep south you wont find them in areas where there is more religious
diversity because some one screams about their civil rights being violated. that is what is sad. Our founding fathers were wise men but they had no clue what
was coming and while they wanted to avoid the Church of England scenario and the oppression that MOST of the early settlers came here to escape and to
establish a government where people could practice their religion freely, their original idea is being used today to suppress religious freedom rather than
encourage it. I think that is what those of us on the religious right protest, we want to keep Christmas and Easter and prayer in schools and UNDER GOD in the
pledge of allegiance and all those things are being attacked.
0 Kudo
Sleaze charge: 'I took drugs, had homo sex with Obama'
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 wcvet |
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TIGER OVERLORD
 Posts: 6818 (02/22/08 12:46:38) |
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Ausome11 |
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TIGER OVERLORD
Posts: 12525 (02/22/08 13:25:29) |
wcvet wrote: How is it eroding the rights of Christians to practice their religion freely? Pray tell. Just because Christianity no longer has a stranglehold on our governmental system does not mean its "rights" are being eroded. Christianity is just like any other religion: they have the right to practice their religion freely and leave everyone else the hell alone. No more. No
less.
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wcvet |
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TIGER OVERLORD
Posts: 6818 (02/22/08 14:02:14) |
How is it eroding the rights of Christians to practice their religion freely? Pray tell. There is no more prayer in schools, there is no more prayer at school
functions ( well it is but only in small communities), and if you go around DC and look at the monuments you will see religious figures like MOses holding the
ten commandments on the walls but you cant put them on a new building. I think Congress no longer opens with prayer. there is a move to take out UNDER GOD both
from our money and our pledge of allegiance. Saying Merry Christmas is not politically correct so it is being discouraged as well. Lots of things that were
accepted are now being questioned. YOu have to be careful what is discussed in a Church building and they cannot be used for political rallies for fear of
losing their tax exempt status yet the Church in a small community is the normal gathering place for the people.
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Ausome11 |
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TIGER OVERLORD
Posts: 12525 (02/22/08 15:21:47) |
wcvet wrote: There is prayer in schools. If you're a Christian, you can pray. No one's stopping you. When I was in high school (not too long ago), there was a Christian club. They met at the flagpole every morning and prayed together. Nobody stopped them. When my brother was in high school, he was part of a gay-straight alliance club. You can't honestly justify the public schools organizing prayer when they're funded by the govt. As I said, if you're a christian, you can pray any time you damn well please. No one's stopping you. Placing 'under god' on money or pledge of allegiance is a lean towards theocratic ideals. I don't say 'Merry Christmas' to people because I don't know if they even celebrate Christmas. Your point about the Churches losing tax exempt status is exactly right. If they support or endorse a candidate, they are now involved in the political and governmental process and are not separate. If they are indeed separated from govt/politics, then that's what earns them their tax exempt status. Instead of Moses and other religious people or scripture, we can put statues or quotes of famous Americans (I know, what a concept). There's plenty of people involved in our history that were far more important than Moses, Daniel or any other important biblical figure. Just something I thought I'd throw out there. When I go to a government building, I'd expect to see people who helped mold our country to what it is today, and not figures of Christianity. |
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wcvet |
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TIGER OVERLORD
Posts: 6818 (02/22/08 18:23:40) |
see people who helped mold our country to what it is today
the whole basis for the rule of Law and JudeoChristian ethics is the ten commandments!!!!! this is what our legal system is based on. Kind of an important figure in molding our country. who better to have in the vestibule of the supreme court. the under GOd is there, has been there. Why remove it? it has been good enough. Why is it not now? WHen the Church is the social/cultural center of a community what is wrong with politics being discussed there? They discuss other issues there. ? I think there are plenty of tax exempt organizations that do have political agendas and support canidates so that should not be a question. Things like PAC's. they have an agenda and no one has a problem with their tax exempt status. My wife is a teacher and cant lead her class in a blessing but it was done 30 years ago when I was in elementary school. yet you say we have not had anything taken away from us? I beg to differ and think history and these facts support my argument. |
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fleeper |
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Senior Tiger
Posts: 432 (02/22/08 19:07:44) Junior Tiger |
What are the ten commandments based on? Code of Hammurabi maybe? So maybe the rule of law is based on something that is man made (as the ten commandments
really are anyway).
The Fleeper: Fleepin' Since 1/25/2005
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Bren10Man |
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SUPREME TIGER
 Posts: 1246 (02/22/08 19:32:41) Chief Slobber Knocker |
fleeper wrote: Hmm...the last time I read Exodus, and from what I saw watching The Ten Commandments, the finger of God wrote them on 2 stone tablets......
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v105/bren10man/Rocky2.jpg
OIF Vet: 24 JAN to 19 JUL 03 BCS divided by C = B.S. |
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wcvet |
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TIGER OVERLORD
Posts: 6818 (02/23/08 05:32:47) |
The ten commandments predate the Hammurabi so it is unlikely that they were based on that.
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fleeper |
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Senior Tiger
Posts: 432 (02/23/08 07:26:48) Junior Tiger |
Vet, no they don't...code of Hammurabi was first.
De Morgan had found what later would be known as the Code of Hammurabi, 282 laws carved into stone. The code of Hammurabi became the very model of later legal systems, and also was the inspiration of the Biblical laws and regulations. On top of the stone, Hammurabi himself was depicted together with the Sungod Shamash, the divine protector of justice. linkage
The Fleeper: Fleepin' Since 1/25/2005
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Last Edited By: fleeper
02/23/08 07:31:06.
Edited 1 times.
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wcvet |
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TIGER OVERLORD
Posts: 6818 (02/23/08 08:28:16) |
depends on your source as to being the first but it does predate Moses since I looked at the dates wrongs ( BC smaller number is later than earlier number) The
earlier code of Ur-Nammu, of the Ur-III dynasty (21st century BC), the Hittite code of laws (ca. 1300 BC), and Mosaic Law (traditionally ca. 1400 BC under
Moses), all contain statutes that bear at least passing resemblance to those in the Code of Hammurabi and other codices from the same geographic area.
[i][source is wkik/i]
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fleeper |
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Senior Tiger
Posts: 432 (02/23/08 08:34:25) Junior Tiger |
I guess it could depend on the source, but if you look at most historical sites, COH predates the TC. Npt sure it can be called a fact, but about as close as
you are going to get. I will psot another reference a little later---taking the kid bike riding right now.
The Fleeper: Fleepin' Since 1/25/2005
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AUPastor |
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5th Year Senior Tiger
Posts: 562 (02/23/08 08:59:37) Senior Tiger |
Has anyone noticed that the dividing line in this debate is the Bible? Some have tried to skew and slant the Bible to justify their stance, some rightfully,
some wrongfully. Some have made this into a political/political correctness debate, while others have taken the side of either issue just because they
don't like the other side. But it all boils down to a division between those who believe the Bible as the inerrant, inspired Word of God (from Genesis to
Revelation), and those who believe otherwise, either partly or fully.
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 TigerLily |
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SUPREME TIGER
Posts: 1490 (02/23/08 09:18:27) Palomino Tiger |
AUPastor, that was a great post. I tried to say the same thing earlier in another post, but didn't do a very good job. Either one is a believer or they
're not, and the faith to believe is something we cannot even take credit for ourselves. Very humbling for the Christian and even more reason to care about
non-believers.
"The best thing about being single is that all the decisions are unanimous"
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gshabo |
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SUPREME TIGER
Posts: 1209 (02/23/08 09:48:52) Sophomore Tiger |
But it all boils down to a division between those who believe the Bible as the inerrant, inspired Word of God (from Genesis to Revelation), and those
who believe otherwise, either partly or fully.
I don't believe anyone of you believe it's the inerrant inspired word of God or you wouldn't pick and choose which versus to follow and instead would follow all the teachings iof the bible. If you disagree with this statement then let the slaughter of disrespectful children begin as commanded by the bible. For everyone who curses his father or his mother shall surely be put to death. He has cursed his father or his mother. His blood shall be upon him." (Leviticus 20:9) Stop eating pork as is commanded: "And the swine, though he divide the hoof, and be cloven footed, yet he cheweth not the cud; he is unclean to you". "Of their flesh shall ye not eat, and their carcass shall ye not touch, they are unclean to you." [Leviticus 11:7-8] The truth is that you pick and choose verses to adhere to as they suit your belief system. I'm not saying their is anything wrong with picking and choosing which verses to follow, but it allows you choice. You can no longer use the line the bible commands me to look at homosexuals as sinners if you choose to disregard other teachings. You are free to choose. You always have been. |
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Bren10Man |
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SUPREME TIGER
Posts: 1246 (02/23/08 09:57:13) Chief Slobber Knocker |
gshabo wrote: For your sake, gashabo, are you SURE you want to state that, for in Leviticus, it states, verse 20:13- if a man lieth with mankind as he does with womankind, he hath committeth abomination and shall surely be put to death......
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v105/bren10man/Rocky2.jpg
OIF Vet: 24 JAN to 19 JUL 03 BCS divided by C = B.S. |
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gshabo |
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SUPREME TIGER
Posts: 1209 (02/23/08 10:01:21) Sophomore Tiger |
I stated it for that very reason Bren. If it commands you to kill, why do you not do so? Hate is of your own choosing. It was never dictated by God.
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WarEagleVII |
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Flounder
 Posts: 24 (02/23/08 10:08:27) |
...what are your beliefs, gshabo? Do you believe that the Bible is the Word of God or do you think it was written by a bunch of men who are dictating morality and plagarizing from different writings (ie. Hammurabi Code)? |
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Bren10Man |
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SUPREME TIGER
Posts: 1246 (02/23/08 10:14:22) Chief Slobber Knocker |
gshabo wrote: Jesus himself said to love the sinner, but hate and reject the sin...that is throughout the Gospels according to Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John....hence why
Jesus said he did not come to change the word, but to fulfill the word.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v105/bren10man/Rocky2.jpg
OIF Vet: 24 JAN to 19 JUL 03 BCS divided by C = B.S. |
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gshabo |
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SUPREME TIGER
Posts: 1209 (02/23/08 10:17:53) Sophomore Tiger |
I think there are some good stories about a good man. New Testament that is. I think the bible was written as code to bring stability to the Israelites.
Written by men with an agenda for the time, and maybe some God inspired moments thrown in for good measure. But the word of God straight up dictated into the
pens of man.... No I don't believe that. I do believe, however, in a loving caring God of my understanding. For the most part, the bible is not his words.
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Bren10Man |
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SUPREME TIGER
Posts: 1246 (02/23/08 10:21:04) Chief Slobber Knocker |
gshabo wrote: It is 0318 in the morning Korea time.....and fixing to hit the hay. If I wasn't so bushed, I would point out where in the Bible, it states it numerous
times that it is the word of God....revealed to mankind.....
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v105/bren10man/Rocky2.jpg
OIF Vet: 24 JAN to 19 JUL 03 BCS divided by C = B.S. |
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